My Experience or The Bible – What Came First, the Chicken or the Egg?
Recently, in a discussion with another Pastor about some of the more difficult areas of the Bible (difficult as in hard to interpret), I heard a phrase that has had me thinking:
“Instead of letting what you haven’t experienced and your current understanding about what the Bible says define what you can experience, there might be times when what you’ve experienced redefines what you understand the Bible to say. Just because you haven’t experienced that, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen today – especially when the Bible might say it does.”
Now, the “that” of our conversation isn’t important, and although we were productively sharing our interpretations of the Bible’s teachings, I’m not sure that an open comment forum would be the best way to duke it out further. But for the purposes of thought and communication, I’ll expand.
Have you ever been opposed to God operating in a certain way, or area, or at a certain level in your life because you didn’t believe it was possible or understood the Bible to mean something different? Do you allow what you currently understand the Bible to say or not say to be the box where within you allow your experiences of a relationship with God to remain?
Situation: I’ve just experienced something new within a worship service at a church I’ve started to attend and I don’t know how to take it.
Response #1 – I don’t think my experience should effect what I previously believed the Bible said about that. I reject that experience as God.
Response #2 – Because I’ve now experienced what I hadn’t before, I should be open to a different understanding of what I thought the Bible said.
I’m asking; what is the mature, appropriate response to experiencing something new in a worship service?
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November 8th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Wow! Loaded question. I made a comment on your twitter about your perception of an experience possibly being the things that contradicts the Bible. After reading the above, I have a few different thoughts.
1) I stick to the opinion that our life experiences (wounds, insecurities, church experience, spiritual maturity… Or lack thereof, etc) give us a perception that may or may not be healthy.
2) We’re blessed to be in a place where we are taught and believe sound doctrine but not everyone has that opportunity. There are some wacky thing being taught and some of them being taught as biblical… Which leads me to thought…
3) John 10:4 My sheep know my voice. The more we know Him and how His spirit operates I think we should be able to discern the source/purpose of those experiences.
Thoughts from a simple mind rather than an analytical one
November 8th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
It can be a loaded question, for sure. I would generally agree with your #1 statement in that our experiences help to shape our perceptions.
However, #2 hinges on my exact question – how do we know for certain what is sound doctrine and what is not? What makes a good church?
Is it the number of Biblical teachers that agree with my teachings that makes my doctrine sound? Is it the inability to refute my teachings that make them sound?
My question is still out there. If I started to attend a church and a belief of mine were challenged by an experience, what wins – my belief (deny the experience), or my experience (alter the belief)?
November 9th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Don, I think it’s more then just beliefs/experiences. There are usually four things (scripture, reason, tradition and experience). It seems you have lumped the first 3 into “beliefs.” So you might want to look further into Wesley’s Quadrilateral. Though some people think his doctrine on Holiness is too extreme (Perfect love?!), most people find it hard to deny the quadrilateral when it comes to fleshing out the faith.
As far as the loaded questions: what about churches who “believe the bible is inerrant” yet allow women to be pastors and the church to pray/speak in tongues without interpretation. This has been something of consistent nagging thought for me. Do I believe the Bible, or do I believe the Bible was culturally relevant? Driscoll poses this question and it’s a tough one.
I think more then the question of is it my belief or is it my experience, is the question “What do I believe and how do my experiences interact with what I believe?”
November 9th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Wow, Don! I know you messaged me to post my own personal input/insight to this, but I’m afraid it would open Pandora’s Box. I’ll just go with your main question, “My Experience, or the Bible…” *** If you find my comment completely inappropriate then feel free to delete it.. I respect that this is your blog and site***
First I’ll give a brief background for any who read this and don’t know where I am coming from. I grew up in a not so religious home. Belief in God was taught but not too intensively. I married the son of a Baptist preacher who was raised in a VERY strict fundamental home. We were youth pastors for 3 years and now are in the long journey of “devangelizing”. Yes, we are no longer believers and it’s for many reasons. I would say both the bible and experience have played a role in this journey… One being the historical inaccuracies found in the book, along with other historical documents written several thousand years before Jesus’ existence, and then finding these writings to be “plagiarized” by new testament writers. In my opinion there are also very obvious signs that the god of the Bible is “manmade” simply because of the human-like qualities he is given. A being, so above us, the supposed creator of the entire universe (planets, starts, perhaps other alien life forms) would not possess such petty human traits as anger, jealousy, wrath, vengeance etc. I often find myself comparing the relationship between the god of the bible and his believers as an abuser/victim relationship. I don’t want to offend but let me clarify that statement. In a typical abusive relationship, the victim continuously overlooks the abusers actions and focuses on the love and the apologies that follow. How does that correlate? Well, many believers often sweep under the rug the side of god that kills entire villages (women and babies included) and tries to redirect to the nice, loving side of him. Verses that condone stoning disobedient children to death are unacceptable to me. Stories such as Elijah being taunted by two little boys and then God sending a bear to devour them in the woods because Elijah went crying to him, has no place for me. It being seen as an honor when a man hides two angels from enemies and allows his daughter to be raped by them to appease them, is despicable.
Also, experience is such a subjective thing, that to base ones entire belief system on experience would be a grave mistake. This is easily proven in high school “love” (if you’ll follow me down this analogy) We “experience” what we know must be real love which leads us to believe that this must be the only person for us… hindsight and you couldn’t pay me all the money in the world to be married to that first love! The psychologist in me warns that the feelings elicited by things such as worship, or other acts of religion can lead to turning these abstract anomalies into concrete truth. I guess what I am saying is the danger is that someone’s version of the truth (influenced by warm fuzzy feelings) shouldn’t be forced upon someone else who’s own life experiences would make it impossible for them to recreate that truth for themselves.
So to the above question being rephrased into “What do I believe, and how do my experiences interact with what I believe?
I do not find the bible to be truth for me. I believe that every human is entitled to discover whatever it is that makes their journey of life a happy and meaningful one. I believe that we have only one life, one shot given to us. People ask me if it bothers me that when I die that’s it, nothing more…I like to respond with the words of Mark Twain, ” I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
November 9th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Tim, I have heard of (at least in structure) of Wesley’s Quadrilateral but have to admit that I have not done much by way of research in the subject. I will have to do more and continue the discussion.
Would you be willing to share a time when you experienced something in the confines of your relationship with God that seemingly contradicted what you had previously believed or were told? How did you reconcile the cognitive dissonance between what you had believed, but not experienced and what you had now experienced and not yet believed?
November 9th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Mari,
Thanks. First off, I’ve never been afraid of Pandora’s box. Additionally, I don’t believe that God is somehow challenged by our “fleshing it out” so to speak. I do not believe God to be so insecure about his relationship with his children as to worry if we have conflicting beliefs (beliefs can come and go). I think it’s when we quit asking that a real problem exists.
“Devangelizing”
I think your situation is not only appropriate, but I welcome anything you feel you would like to input into the conversation.
I have found (and am finding) life to be less and less of a buffet of beliefs – allowing me to walk along and pick what I believe to be true for me or applicable in this situation or another while refusing to accept others because I don’t like how they taste. I’m learning that my emotions are not loyal to me and can cause me to think or act in one way one day – or completely different another. As easily as they come on, they can just as easily flee. Beliefs can be that way too. You obviously believed one way once, changed (or deepened) that belief for a season as you pastored, and now have reversed your position on many of the things that were once believed. It could be said (assuming you were following merely your beliefs – and I’m not saying you are) that it is possible you might end up on the other side of the fence at some point in the future, if even for a brief moment.
I think that’s kind of my point in this conversation – I too do not think that it is appropriate to follow the “warm fuzzy” emotions that can overcome us – no more than it is appropriate to follow the harsh and cruel on the reverse side of that coin.
Yet I can’t deny what I’ve experienced. The who I was that I am no more. The change that has happened to me, Don Norman, from the inside out. I have changed.
There is just enough fundamentalist inside of me to believe that if I’m led by my experiences, I’ll end up chasing the expressions of God and never really get to know him as revealed by His word.
There is just enough anti-fundamentalist inside of me to reject the thought that I can somehow be content to intellectually know a God who is so far above my comprehension. I’m not smart enough to understand WHY He does what He does. I’m just content to know THAT He does.
I think each of us have valuable input into this conversation and have no problem with posting here – this could be very beneficial to some. I would however, like to continue this discussion – you may feel email would be easier and allow you to speak more freely.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Don, threw all ive seen and expirenced I know this much if it does not line up with the word of God then let it go. Paul said if anyone come preaching any other gospel but this one reject it. I know if have expirenced things that people dont belive in or think that its real but I know it real by what the word says and testing the spirts. A person with and expirence is never at the mercie of a person with an argument. love u.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Mari I hear what you are saying, and I have a few thoughts I hope you could consider.
“A being, so above us, the supposed creator of the entire universe (planets, starts, perhaps other alien life forms) would not possess such petty human traits as anger, jealousy, wrath, vengeance etc”
-> How do you know? Can a person project themselves into the infinite past of time & space and then declare what they would have done if they were in God’s place? Isn’t that at least some degree of arrogance on our part? (See Job chapter 38, I believe God says yes!) Also consider, the Bible says God made us in His image – so it only stands to reason that we would have many attributes similar to His (Gen 1:26-27).
My brother has the same issue with the Elisha and bears incident. At the time I had no idea what to tell him. Since then I have studied this out. It is recorded as a mob of actually 42 youths who were probably much older than sometimes thought (see http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=05288, the same word is sometimes translated as “young men”, “soldiers”), and considering their location they were likely sons the false prophets who had recently been a serious threat to the lives of the few true prophets. So if it makes any difference, please consider that these were probably not just a couple of toddlers who did not know what they were doing.
The Old Testament is a record of how far we have fallen from God’s holiness. There is no “abuse” on God’s part – only humankind’s mistakes when compared to the truth of God’s commandments, until there was salvation in Christ to fulfill all of those requirements for us which we could not live up to ourselves.
Unless you were there, in the Old Testament times, there is no way to fully grasp what someone such as Lot was dealing with – the unending violence and evil – and what Lot did was never condoned in the account. Lot is not considered a hero of scripture – and even of those in the Bible who were heros, all utterly failed at one time or another. The Bible records what happened. It does not imply that such things were all right in God’s sight.
There are thousands more ancient manuscripts of the Bible than any other book in history – yet people who wish to reject God give more credit to accounts of the history of Rome and Greece such as Livy and Polybius, where we have very 5 or 10 manuscripts. I don’t say we should doubt in those works, they are remarkable – I just think we should give all the more credit to works with over 5,000 Greek and 8,000 (some say 10,000) Latin manuscripts like the New Testament, and the many Old Testament manuscripts, including copies of the Septuagint, Masoretic Text, and the Samaritan Pentateuch, each derived from numerous manuscripts which were carefully preserved — and the more recently found Dead Sea Scrolls’ 215 biblical manuscripts and hundreds of others that often quote or refer to them, 1,000 years older than any previously known. To many skeptics’ surprise this find actually further authenticated the agreement of the others available, demonstrating the legitimacy of the other manuscripts know since the middle ages. (Sources: preface to the New King James version, and introduction to the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible.)
Who is being more accurate in their study of history, when the Bible is not even allowed to be talked about now in schools, but history based on other works with far less authenticity is required to be taught? Of course I am not saying ignore the other historical sources – they are valid too. But don’t strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Isn’t it evidence of the powerful message of this book, that it is so shunned by some?
My personal experience, not based on just feelings, but also practical work as an editor where significant version conflicts frequently arose among only 3 or 4 authors in a period of 4 years in a small set of documents with the most sophisticated editing equipment ever known throughout history – my belief is that it is a true miracle that only tiny differences exist and the overall message is so consistent in the writings of 40 different authors in 4,000 years. God has a plan. Man has a problem. God has a solution. Man needs to make a response. That is the basic message which you can find throughout scriptures, for those who are truly seeking to learn and not pull things out of that context.
I would like to know what you mean about plagiarized works. You are not referring to the scribes’ diligent copying of manuscripts since ancient times so we would have dependable record of inspired writings, are you?
No one was talking here about forcing anyone’s version of the truth on anyone else, I don’t think. I believe this is just an introspective look on an individual level, at how can someone weigh such things out for them. For me, it boils down to this: Am I going to allow myself to be transformed, changed by God to the new life He has promised – or am I going to allow my lifestyle and circumstances to change my beliefs about Him? I choose the new life – and I will stay on that path, even though He in His wisdom did not choose to reveal the whole path right now, or all truths of the universe – I only need to stay with Him through His grace, to see more clearly step by step, each new day.
Yes you are right that you can’t trust in feelings – in Jeremiah 17:9 it even says “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Yet we are taught in human wisdom to follow your heart, just do what comes naturally, whatever you feel like.
—
My 2 cents worth on the question up top – I agree wholeheartedly with Cindy that what we believe should be in agreement with scripture: Acts 17:11 “These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.” One extremely easy way to do this, while you are doing the dishes or commuting or whatever, check out the ESV Chronological Reading Guide, a free podcast + newsfeed (there are no ads, I’m not selling anything, its not mine – I just love to listen): http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/share/rss2.0/chronological
Acts 15:1-33 also gives us an excellent pattern to follow for how to deal with experiences that don’t match our preconceived ideas and traditions of men.
I fully expect every day to find out something new, maybe even find out I was wrong about something.
For me it is in this order of precedence:
1. It has to agree with the written word (see 2 Timothy 3:16 “Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness”, 2 Peter 1:20 “No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination”; Acts 15:15-17, Amos 9:11-12)
2. Results, personal experience (What I’ve encountered in a changed life, fruits of the spirit – i.e. what works and what doesn’t work to bring peace and joy; Gal 5:22, Eph 5:9-10, Rom 14:17, Acts 15:12)
3. Godly leadership that is proven to be trustworthy (Prov 11:4, Acts 15:6)
4. Feelings deep inside (The whisper you hear if you turn everything off and ask the Lord which way His light and restful yoke leads; the still small voice – 1 Kings 19:12 “after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice”; Acts 15:8)
5. Those who oppose you can sometimes play a part in revealing God’s plan (Judges 7:13-15). Also we shouldn’t be constantly quarreling, so those kinds of things can be a barometer for us (Rom 12:18). However there is a limit to that. We ought not to set all our efforts on being pollitically correct, being a people-pleaser. If everyone thinks well of everything you stand for, that’s probably not a good thing. (Luke 6:26, Gal 1:10, Acts 4:19).
When a new worship experience or new teaching stands up to all of those tests I say dive in!
November 12th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I hope that did not sound too overbearing. It really is with the assumption that Mari & everyone here is seeking truth, which I am sure is the case, while at the same time trying to address some of the doubts we may sometimes have heard from others that may cause my brothers & sisters in Christ, myself included, to stumble. I truly just want to offer what I have found so far in my own quest in case it helps others.
November 14th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Don, you asked “What makes a good church?” I’m sure many people find themselves asking this question. I’ve been on both sides of that so I’ll share my experiences for anyone who might be interested.
You can probably tell I am a “Response #2″ kind of guy now. That comes from having grown up in a church where I heard only moral teachings without ever knowing what the gospel was, then as a teenager, turning completely away from anything to do with religion, but then discovering a whole new experience at my fiancé’s church where I started to go when we were deciding where to get married. This was a small church of believers who were determined to experience the Book of Acts for themselves first-hand. These people simply did not want to miss out on anything that God has for us. While much of this seemed pretty strange to me, I also heard for the first time a clear message of the good news (which is what gospel means in plain English), and I accepted a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
So the first thing I learned about what makes a good church, at least for me & my wife, is being around people who encourage others to a close personal relationship with the Lord, and desiring all that He has for us.
Soon we moved and found a new church that seemed a lot like the one we were married at. We grew tremendously during this time, closer to God, each other & to some very good friends. The teachings went into great depth, with what I still find to be accurate and biblically based messages. But through a process of time it became clear that something was missing, and in its place there was a kind of harshness that was always just below the surface. It gradually increased, and at times even was directed at specific individuals in front of the congregation, not in a scriptural process either. It was very subtle, but those who knew anything about the situations could tell. This did not sit right, seeming to be almost cult-like.
So the second lesson was that in a good church, there should be a gentle and loving leadership. Yes there might occasionally be a need for “tough love” but certainly not as a general rule. The scriptures say a lot about speaking the truth in love, and leading gently.
Since then we went to another church that was a night & day contrast in terms of gentle leadership. We have moved a few times since then and had to find new church homes. Other things we have found to be important to us — way at the top is friendly genuine people who welcome you into home Bible study groups, also having engaging classes for all ages, helping the needy, supporting missions, and encouraging all to be involved in at least some ministry (that can be in many many different forms), not only the pastor.
In my humble opinion, denominations do not matter. They are like #hashtags in a Twitter posting – there for convenience to MAYBE help you find what you’re looking for, but not intended by the creator (1 Cor 1:12-13), and sometimes may overly restrict your search. We are actually now very happy to be members of a Southern Baptist church. Previous things I had heard turned out to be false. If you hear much putting down of other denominations where you are, or isolationist mentality such as not listening to even well-respected Christian radio & media, those can possibly be warning signs.
Because churches are made up of imperfect people, you’ll never find the perfect church. So I caution anyone in their quest to find the right church to not get caught up in church hopping that keeps you from the benefits of relationships with friends and leaders. But DO study the scriptures on your own and make sure what you hear and see are not based on only half-truths or traditions of men, and if so, point it out to your pastor. If needed, take courage and prayerfully keep looking. And if you’ve been hurt by a church, and have been away for a while, be encouraged to look for something different. You WILL be blessed and challenged to grow when you are in the right place.
Well I think that concludes my hogging this blog comment page with my lengthy posts at least for now. I hope you don’t mind. It comes from writing construction specifications where I can go on and on as much as I need to, and being an analytical guy very much like you seem to be too.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Wonderful Morning, Great bad, specially from the major news corperations with the big slants to the left or right. Did you see last nights O’Rielly factor? haha, that was rediculous! Sorry, I am rambling on once again. Have a Good day!
May 5th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Don,
Wonderful question. On the one hand, there can be a dangerous temptation to let our experiences (which often mean “emotional experiences”) determine our reading of Scripture. On the other hand, it can also be dangerous to let our reading of Scripture be so obstinate to refinement that we risk becoming unteachable. And whether we know it or not, we take a lot of doctrinal principles to the Scriptures which we formed prior to reading them; we bring our own “tradition” to the table, passed down to us through either parents or pastors. The question then takes one step back: How can we decipher true traditions of interpretations from false ones? I have found in my own experience that I have unwittingly ignored the full impact of some verses of Scripture which did not fit nicely in with the tradition that had been handed down to me. But is it really possible to interpret Scripture without any sort of tradition? And if not, the question must be put again: What tools do we use to judge that tradition?
This very question has led me to study of early Church Fathers. It seems likely that those men whom the Apostles themselves ordained to protect the Deposit of Faith, the Apostolic Traditions, would offer the best place to start. So I bought a three volume set of their writings and never looked back. I would suggest the same to any Christian grappling with this question.
May 5th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
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July 20th, 2010 at 4:25 am
The Rebel (2006) film is 1 of my favored that I watched so far. Loving the plot plus the how the story will take place.